Jodi: Hi. I’m Jodi Cohen, your host, and I’m so excited to welcome one of my dear friends for almost 25 years and the author of Rituals Roadmap. And I’m going to read your bio from the book.
Erica Keswin is a bestselling author, internationally sought-after speaker, and founder of the Spaghetti Project–which we will talk about–a roving ritual devoted to sharing the science and stories of relationships at work. She helps top-of-the-class businesses, organizations, and individuals improve their performance by honoring relationships in every context, always with an eye toward high-tech for human touch.
And she’s an awesome person. I highly recommend the book. It’s really a great roadmap for navigating tough times. So welcome, Erica. Thank you for joining us.
Erica: Thank you for having me.
Jodi: So, I want to start off by asking you how you define resilience.
Erica: When I think about resilience in all different areas of your life, whether it’s work, whether it’s home–right now, work and home are the same thing– it’s how well we can adapt in the face of adversity. And I see that with myself. I see it with having three teenagers. So I’m sure there are many definitions, more complicated definitions, but I think if I were to boil it down, I mean, that’s what it means to me.
Jodi: Yeah. And you’re a great pivoter. And I want to ask the difference in your mind between ritual and routine?
Erica: Yeah. So I get that a lot. What’s a ritual? What’s a habit? What’s a protocol? So here’s my definition of ritual. There’s three parts to it. The first is, a ritual is something to which we assign a certain amount of meaning or intention.
The second part is that a ritual is something that happens with some kind of repetition or regular cadence. Every morning, once a week, once a month, once a year. Just some kind of regular cadence. And the third part–I’m so curious to get your take on it, as well–the third part is that a ritual is something that goes beyond its practical purpose.
So what do I mean by that? If I’m sitting in my office right now in New York City and the lights go out and I can’t see anything and I light a candle, that’s not a ritual. But if I light a candle every day around 6:00 to signify the end of the work day and the beginning of my time at home with my husband, my kids, my dog, that’s a ritual. There’s meaning and intention, and there’s some repetition, but I’m not lighting that candle at 6:00 every day to be able to see.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: So those are the three working parts of my definition. And a ritual, I guess lastly, is you’d feel like something was really missing if it went away.
Jodi: Yeah. And I feel like we need rituals in our lives. You think about the holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas. You have family rituals. It’s something to look forward to.
Erica: Yes. And the science shows it gives us…in the book I talk about something called the Three P’s of Rituals. What is the return on investment, the ROI of rituals, both personally but also at work? And the three P’s are: rituals give us a sense of psychological safety, so that’s the first P. A real sense of connection and belonging. It could be to others or it could be that connection to ourself. The second P is an opportunity to connect to purpose and values.
And you add those two together and you get a boost of performance, which is the third P. And plenty of studies on performance at work…I’d say we’re talking more about the individual right now, and the performance for us as individuals is that when we feel more connected to others, to ourselves, we get that burst of oxytocin.
That feel-good hormone goes up. Our stress, our cortisol, goes down. So that’s one of the reasons why…I mean, as I was thinking about and preparing for this today, I think that’s a big part of why it does help with resilience.
Jodi: Yeah. And as I was sharing before we got on camera, when Max died it was so overwhelming, and a mutual friend told me, “You just need to eat, sleep, and move.” And they started off as almost tasks, but they became rituals. Like planning what I was going to eat, how I was going to move.
And it really gave me something to look forward to, a sense of purpose. And I’m curious. I know you’ve supported so many people through COVID, and I’m wondering, what are some of the rituals that people have been leaning into and finding helpful?
Erica: So it differs for everyone. And one of the reasons why I called the book Rituals Roadmap is that the goal is to figure out… eat, sleep, and move. That was your roadmap. Probably still is, a piece of that.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: So it’s going to be different for everyone. So, on an individual basis, people should map out and first ask yourself this question around does your calendar reflect your values and what’s really important to you? Because out of that analysis, or thinking through the answer to that question, brings you to opportunities for rituals.
So it could be rituals in the morning when you wake up. A lot of people have bedtime rituals, the transition ritual that I just talked about. Many people these days have commuting rituals–fake commuting rituals because they’re not going anywhere–but they literally go for a walk outside for 30 minutes, which was the exact amount of time that it took them on the subway to get to work.
And they don’t miss the traffic but they miss that 30 minutes of listening to a podcast or having that shifting time. If you have young kids pulling off the Cheerios and getting to…out of the mommy mode and into the work mode. I’d say one of the most important rituals right now for people are rituals around taking breaks, because we can’t sit in front of these computers all day long. It’s not good for our back. As I say that I’m fixing my posture.
Jodi: Me too.
Erica: It’s not good. They say it’s even worse than secondhand smoke in many ways, sitting all day. So, we need to get moving, but oftentimes the whole day goes by and we haven’t moved. So a woman from Facebook shared recently a ritual that she calls 20 by 20 by 20. Every 20 minutes, she takes a 20-second break, 20 feet from her computer.
Jodi: Oh, that’s funny. That’s really clever. And I know so much…before you wrote Rituals Roadmap you wrote Bring Your Human to Work.
Erica: Yep.
Jodi: And you wrote a lot about connection and how water cooler conversation spurs connection and the Spaghetti Project. And I know this is something you’re an expert in. Can you talk a little bit about connection rituals in COVID when connection has really changed?
Erica: Yeah. It goes back to…this is so cheesy, but, and also happens to be the name of my podcast, which is “Left to Our Own Devices.” And left to our own devices, we’re not connecting, even during COVID. All of a sudden, I wasn’t traveling on planes and speaking at conferences. Yet the whole day could go by and I didn’t feel like I really had done anything to feel connected to others and to myself.
So I think the key word that really jumps out is intentional. We have got to be intentional or–at least for myself, speaking for myself–it’s not going to happen. So I link this question to what I said earlier, which is answering, Does your calendar reflect your values?
And a personal example I can share is if you and I were having this conversation a year and a few months ago and we were talking about connection rituals, I would say that I’m always struggling with finding the time to sit down to have a family dinner. The kids have sports and as they get older–you know, our kids are similar age–they’re late, practices are late, and you’re never really doing it.
Jodi: Well, you’re not as desirable as their friends.
Erica: Well, correct, and you’re certainly not as…I would never even try to compete. Yet, family, it is important to have it some nights, but I always felt like I was chasing everybody. Now, fast forward. I have more family meals coming out of my ears, and my kids are like, “Can you please go out to dinner? Please.” We’re all sick of each other.
So, about six months ago when I was thinking about rituals and connections…and what I was missing during this time was my girlfriends. My husband was there. I could go for walks. I could see some people locally, but really, I have friends that live all over the country and was really missing that. You’ve known me forever. I’m the one that plans the girls trips and fun things.
Jodi: You do. You’re a great travel planner.
Erica: Right, and there was nowhere to go.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: So what I did was reach out to a really close friend who lives in Colorado. And we created a new ritual around connection, that once a week she goes for a walk. I go for a walk. We are not on Zoom. We have our earbuds in, and we walk. So you get your steps in. You get that burst of oxytocin and connecting with a good friend.
So, it’s really looking at what’s missing. And it could be that what’s missing is that time to connect with yourself, around morning meditation or gratitude, figuring out those gaps, or maybe it’s with a kid, or maybe it’s with a friend, and being intentional and really just making the time.
Jodi: Yeah. I love that. That was actually one of the things…right before my business took off, I started scheduling “me” time on the calendar, like blocking it in if I was going to a yoga class or if I was going to go on a hike. And it made a huge difference because I think when you schedule it, you prioritize it, and it suddenly, you can’t cancel it or blow it off as easily.
Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you said earlier–we were talking about the eat, sleep, and move–it became a ritual. And it goes back to that definition where there’s meaning and intention around it, that I think the minute you start, okay, my alarm goes off, I have to do it…I don’t know if that’s really a ritual. Most times a ritual is something where you feel pulled to do it. You feel like there’s a real gap if…and, look. We all have days where we don’t do certain things, but you miss it, and you’re like, okay. You know what? I know I don’t have time, but I am going to meditate tomorrow, or I am going to write down three things that I’m grateful for. So hopefully, it becomes more of that pull with the idea of there being real meaning and intention around it.
Jodi: Yeah. You mentioned habit. It’s like a happy habit, like a habit you look forward to because you’ve ascribed meaning to it. So we talked about putting it on the calendar. And then what else do you do? Like the talk with your friend. It’s consistent, it’s ritual. What are some other things for people that are like, oh, this is a good idea? I like the idea of getting up and moving, getting up and walking.
How else can people elevate…COVID, it’s almost like every day blends together. You’re not going anywhere. You’re not leaving the house for reasons. You maybe start looking forward to your doctor’s appointments because you get to get outside. How can people shake this up a bit?
Erica: Yeah. It really is different for everyone. I would start with some things that you’re already doing. Somebody shared with me recently that one of their rituals is when they take their dog out in the morning and they take a few deep breaths. And they feel the sun and hopefully…maybe not where you are always in Seattle, but either the cold air and the rain or the sun, getting the vitamin D in their skin.
And it’s the word you use, which I love, it is that elevation, and it’s that shift in mindset. So, think about what you’re already doing. Are you going to the gym? It goes back to the values. What’s important to you?
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: And map out your day and say, okay, are there pieces within what I’m already doing? It’s almost like an acknowledgment. Wow, I’m doing that. And is it a ritual? Does it fit that definition? And celebrate it. And if you’re not and you’re more of a morning person, I would try out some morning rituals. If you’re more of a night person and you want some things to help you go to bed.
But if it doesn’t stick, don’t stress about it. You can’t force feed it, and if you try it and if it doesn’t work, I’d say move on and try something else. A personal example I can share, and it’s…I write about it in both of the books. I’m a big Starbucks girl, and I go to Starbucks–
Jodi: We have that in common.
Erica: Yeah. Right. There you go. The example that I’ll share really almost talks about that elevation where something that I was doing went from being more of a routine or a habit to a ritual. So I’d always go to Starbucks and actually, Bring Your Human to Work, my first book, the title came from…was inspired by Ashley Peterson, who’s my longtime Starbucks barista on 80th and Broadway in the Upper Westside where Jodi and I both used to live.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: But I would go to Starbucks. I would sit in the store, which I can’t wait to do again, and I would have my to-do list, and I would be cranking through it and feeling like a million bucks, drink my coffee. Fine. Good. Except, one day I realized that I hadn’t tasted it.
It was gone, and I was bummed. One, because I really look forward to that first couple sips of coffee in the morning. I’m not an all-day coffee drinker, number one. Number two, Starbucks is not cheap. So, I’m like, oh, my gosh, I finished it and I didn’t even taste it.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: So, in that moment I, with a real awareness, shifted what was more of a routine to more of a ritual. Something else which became about much, much more than the caffeine. And so now when I go in there, I get the same coffee, grande extra hot soy latte, sometimes with an extra shot. I hold the cup on my hands and feel the heat. Rituals are often very connected with our senses.
Jodi: Yes.
Erica: Take a few deep breaths, smell it and taste it, and get on with my day. And rituals, they don’t…it doesn’t have to take very long for you to get some of the benefits of a ritual like that.
Jodi: You’re basically talking about shifting out of autopilot, which is funny. I did the same thing with my coffee. I used to pour the coffee and just start working, and now I go and sit and it’s almost like I very intentionally try to plan my day and figure out what are the most important things. If I get these three things done today, it’ll feel like a success.
Erica: Yep.
Jodi: Because sometimes when you have a 20-page to-do list, you never move forward.
Erica: Yeah. No, it is. It’s the front of the brain, the back of the brain.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: A lot of habits are rote, and you want them to be, like getting your steps. There’s certain people who focus on weight loss habits or drinking water–which I never do enough of–but a lot of that’s back of the brain. And we’re saying let’s move it to the front of the brain and saying, yes, I enjoy getting coffee, but I’m really going to think about and take that time for me in that moment, and then see when it’s gone.
Jodi: Yeah. The other thing that you focus on, you’re very big on productivity. And one of the things I’m curious about, I think that people–to your point about drinking the coffee, you were focused on efficiency–but I wonder, if you pivot and prioritize the coffee if everything still gets done, and maybe more gets done, because you’re not as anxious.
Erica: Yeah. Yes. I mean, to your point, the oxytocin and the cortisol. Rituals ground us. And they give us some order out of chaos.
Jodi: Yes.
Erica: One of the things that happened to me during the pandemic, every Tuesday for the last bunch of years my good friend, Karen and I, would do Pilates at 8:00 a.m. And then we couldn’t do it anymore in person. Our teacher started doing it remote, which was great. But we could have done it anytime because we weren’t traveling. We were basically home.
And I didn’t know this at the time, and I began to read more into the science of it, but there was a real benefit psychologically to keeping it at Tuesday at 8:00 like we had always done. And there was this sense–it goes back to the three P’s–it goes back to that sense of psychological safety and belonging.
Jodi: Can you share more about that research? That’s really interesting. I mean, the world for some people can feel very unsafe right now and very uncertain. So the more you can invoke ritual and create your own safety, that’s really powerful.
Erica: Yeah. There’s a whole chapter in the book. So interestingly, I finished the manuscript for this book–I mean, and you know how long this takes, you just wrote a book–well before I had ever heard of COVID. And I finished the manuscript and handed in the first draft on May 30th. I’m thinking, oh, my, we’re all quarantining. It was the days of scrubbing down the groceries, having no idea what was going to happen.
Jodi: Yeah.
Erica: One silver lining was that I had some time before the final was due, and I was able to go back and reach back out to many of the leaders in the book to talk to them about their rituals, how they were adapting them for these crazy times and the impact that it was having.
And I was able to add a whole extra chapter called “Rituals in Turbulent Times.” And it’s all about how they ground us and how it connects people back, both in terms of if people are thinking about this in terms of where they work, but also at home, to their own values, to their family values, to their company values.
And rituals, what I love about rituals is that they’re highly, highly accessible and they don’t have to cost anything. I mean, it really comes down to intention, which we can all do if we put our mind to it.
Jodi: Yeah. I hope that every listener, as they’re probably sipping coffee while they watch, that they can pause and savor and just encourage everyone to pick one. I mean, you mentioned movement. You mentioned social connection. You mentioned food. Is there anything else that comes to mind that feels relevant to share?
Erica: To share about the benefit of rituals, or?
Jodi: Just ideas for listeners. If they’re like, “Oh, I can do that. I can walk and talk.”
Erica: I would say a lot of people talk to me about starting or ending the day with writing down a couple things that they’re grateful for.
Jodi: I love that.
Erica: And there’s a lot of data that shows the correlation between well-being and gratitude. So I would say it’s a pretty great place to start.
Jodi: Well, I am very grateful for you and for your brilliance and for this book. It’s really good. And I like the graphics, actually. Did you design those or have input on them?
Erica: Thank you. No, I am not artistic, really, at all. But I did find someone to take the vision and bring it to life and make it fun.
Jodi: And can you share more? If people want to continue their journey with you, how do they find you? What else can they–in addition to your books– your broadcast?
Erica: Yeah. Sure. So my website, which is just my name, EricaKeswin.com, E-R-I-C-A-K-E-S-W-I-N-dot-com. And there’s information about both books, about the podcast, about how different organizations work with me from keynotes to strategy sessions where I go in and help them apply the principles in the books to their organizations, and also some in-person, hopefully, some day as well as online, courses based on the books.
Jodi: Yeah. That’s great. Well, thank you for your time and for…these are really great strategies, and I love the idea of rituals as a safety cue, and just helping people organize their calendar differently, think about what they do every day, and how they can enhance the meaning.
Erica: Yeah. Well, thank you. So good to see you. I can’t wait to see you in person one of these days.